The Live Music Forum
Bulletins
Friday 8thWednesday 20th July
Yesterday 'Music' Minister, James Purnell, appeared on another BBC radio programme aiming to pacify claims that the new Licensing legislation means lots of trouble for all sorts of people.
In this interview, Purnell again delivers the now well-worn White
Stripes script. He also makes some of his most misleading, or misinformed statements
so far. Here are just three examples:
On getting permission for live music: 'If you're applying for an alcohol licence
in effect you only have to tick one extra box and, er, you can then get a public
entertainment licence.'
That is, er, total twaddle. The reality is well described in the transcript
below by a caller, Susan Violino, who made a variation application to extend
her restaurant's opening hours. She had to make 204 photocopies, among other
things. Variation applications will be required by almost all bars, restaurants,
hotels etc applying for live music.
On the new application forms: 'So, actually most people only have to fill in
the 7 pages.'
Not if they want live music. 7 pages might be true for a pub converting its
alcohol licence with NO application for live music and no extension of opening
hours. But, according to licensing lawyers, even just keeping 'two in a bar'
gigs going will require a minimum of 15 pages to be filled in.
Lastly: 'If it's just people singing along or jamming then it's not, then it
doesn't require a licence.'
Perhaps Purnell should volunteer as a defence witness when the first prosecution
for jamming is brought under the new Act. 'Spontaneous' jamming might just qualify,
but there is no definition of 'spontaneous' in the Act, and many lawyers doubt
whether such a claim would work.
Note that I have omitted sections where Vine discusses the implications for
circuses and jousting tournaments. I cannot guarantee that I have spelt callers/emailers
names correctly.
Hamish Birchall
-Transcript Begins -
JEREMY VINE BBC R2 - Tuesday 19 July 2005 - 1.30-2pm approx.
Interview with James Purnell, and feedback from listeners re licensing and live
music
VINE: If you are pub or a restaurant, or premises which sell alcohol or provide
live music, you only have 18 days left to apply for a new licence which has
been created by the government. At least 60% of all licensees are yet to apply.
And if they don't meet the deadline of August the 6th they may have to close
when the new Licensing Act comes into force in November. The government has
come under some criticism for this new legislation. At the moment a single musician
or a duo can perform in pubs and clubs without a licence. But, under the new
Act all proprietors have to apply for permission to host any live music, whatever
the size, so we're told. With so few clubs and pubs yet to apply musicians fear
the legislation may lead to the decline of live music and we love live music
here on Radio 2, so that's why we're discussing it. James Purnell is minister
for licensing and joins us, good afternoon.
PURNELL: Good afternoon.
VINE: So now you're basically giving out a warning here are you, saying 'apply
now'?
PURNELL: It's very important that people who sell alcohol or who put on entertainment,
or indeed sell food after 11 o'clock, get their licence applications in by the
6th of August. Once they do this is going to be, I believe, a much much better
system. It's going to get rid of some of the old arkike.. archaic rules like
you know the 11 o'clock closing time for example which means that people end
up necking two or three pints of beer then all being chucked out on the streets
at the same to fight for cabs, and sometimes even fight with each other. I also
think it's going to be much better for live music, actually, and I know there
have been worries about this, but er, er I believe that this Act is going to
be much better for live music. I'm a huge live music fan myself, and I think
that's something which we, you know, will see a real benefit from here...
VINE: Because you've streamlined it, have you, so you, you used to have to bring
out er an alcohol licence and then an entertainment licence separately, and
now you fill out one form.
PURNELL: That's right. If you're applying for an alcohol licence in effect you
only have to tick one extra box and er you can then get a public entertainment
licence. And before you had to apply every year and there were lots of areas
where people were being charged thousands of pounds for these public entertainment
licences. There is this worry about what was called the 'two in the bar rule'.
And there used to be an exemption for people, if two people turned up to play
then that was OK. But our fear about that was that actually it massively distorted
the, kind of, the market for gigs. You could have the White Stripes turning
up, you know they've only got two people in their, er in their band they could
turn up and play. But someone with three or four people, Coldplay or whoever,
couldn't. So actually you had a distortion. We think it's much better to have
a regime where music's properly licensed, and erm we think it will increase
the number of areas of pubs that actually apply for those music licences.
VINE: But it seems that people are either objecting or they just want to live
in ignorance about this because this, this form is trouble. Now how many, how
many sheets of paper is this form?
PURNELL: If you're applying to convert your licence you have to fill in seven
pages. The form's 21 pages long. But that's to cope with all the different regimes
which we're bringing into one. So we're bringing six previous regimes into one
and the form is 21 pages long so you can cope with all the, the various um,
the various er reasons why people to apply. But you would only have to fill
that in if you were a pub that was putting on dancing, cinema, wrestling as
well as, um, you know, having er, applying for extra hours. So, actually most
people only have to fill in the 7 pages.
VINE: Do you have to supply architect's drawings of your establishment?
PURNELL: You have to provide drawings of your establishments and that's because,
for example, if you got, er, er, a nightclub everyone would expect it to be
properly licensed for health and safety reasons, for fire reasons, and that's
why, that's why that's there...
VINE: But you didn't have to do that before.
PURNELL: You did actually have to provide forms of your er, plans for the....
before, yeah.
VINE: Because it just seems people find this form a bit of a bind and they,
and they and they may not be filling it out they may not be getting their licences
because it's actually, it's another overhead they just don't need.
PURNELL: Well what we've done is gone from a situation where people were having
to run off to the magistrates every time they wanted to put on a special event.
So for example if you wanted to show a Lions test in the, early in the morning,
or if you wanted to stay open late for Christmas Eve, people would have to go
to the magistrates to get a special permission. And I think there were about
16 million of those a year. Instead of that we're gonna have people apply for
a licence once, and then they never have to apply again. So that means we're
front-loading the application process. So it's perhaps not surprising that people
are worried about the burden they're going through now. What I would say is
that the light at the end of that tunnel is they will have, they will never
have to apply for it again. So it is going to be a much more flexible system,
and overall we calculate it's gonna save the industry about two billion pounds
over ten years, so there is work to be done now, but there's a real prize for
doing that work.
VINE: Susan Mallett has just emailed and she say's 'Can you ask the minister
why it's necessary to require a licence for nursery school assistants in a drop-in
play group open to the public to sing along with two-year-olds... ' [laughs]
er that can't be right.
PURNELL: Doesn't sound right to me. Ahm, the, the principle that we've put in
place here is no different from one exists under the current Act, so there's
no difference there at all, so essentially..
VINE: So they can sing without filling out a form...
PURNELL: It's not for me to say that, that would be up to their local authority.
But the essential principle there is if you're putting on a piece of public
entertainment, like a concert where you're advertising it, people were coming
along to listen to a performance then that is what would need a licence. If
people are jamming for example, or something happening in a play group, it doesn't
sound like they would need a licence.
VINE: OK, she says you could put on a tape but if you join in with it you require
a licence, that can't be right [laughs]...
PURNELL: Doesn't sound right...
VINE: And she says this, 'Can you ask the minister is he aware that nursing
homes are cancelling musicians coming in to entertain the elderly and the sick.
They are aware that if relations and visitors are present and they join in with
the singing, they need a licence'!
PURNELL: Again that doesn't sound right to me.
VINE: Because you get into this bureaucratic thing don't you where everybody
things they need a licence and they may not do.
PURNELL: Yeah. And the point is that there is no real difference between the
Act as it exists at the moment, the law as it exists at the moment and what
we're bringing in. So the point is if it is a concert and it's public entertainment
then it probably will need a licence, and people would expect that. If it's
just people singing along then it probably won't.
VINE: Let me just read some more comments that are coming in. Ashley Hunter's
just emailed 'I understand that this Act applies to all live music in places
like working men's clubs and church halls as well as pubs.' That is correct
isn't it?
PURNELL: Well, er, churches are exempted from the Act.
VINE: Well church halls, though, village halls and so on.
PURNELL: Village halls would be included if they were putting on a concert,
yeah.
VINE: He says it doesn't apply to live music in churches themselves...
PURNELL: That's right.
VINE: So people singing hymns don't need to get a licence. Adrian Fry emails
and says 'I am a professional musician. This new legislation is unnecessary
bureaucracy. Sound volume levels should be covered by the environmental health
department. And when it comes to safety concerning numbers, each venue should
simply have a capacity limit. There's no broader picture. Those are the real
issues. Administration of anything else is a waste of public money and another
example of New Labour creating a nanny state.' And email here from Paul Dixon
in Rochdale who says 'Dear James Purnell, why did your department leave it until
the third week of June to publish guidance for licensees on how to complete
these application forms?'
PURNELL: Well that's not true actually. We, er, published, er we've been publishing
evidence all the way through. We've been trying to make people aware of this,
er, for the last two years. And people are often coming to us asking specific
questions, and as they come up with specific questions we've been posting specific
advice. But we've, we've published a wide range of advice and it's not right
to say that we waited until June.
VINE: Judy Warlham in Stratford on Avon says 'we've had to apply for a licence
as a school to put on entertainment and serve alcohol and it's actually not
as daunting as you might think'. You have a supportive listener there.
PURNELL: Here here!
VINE: Mandy Friend in Croydon says 'I was on a hen night in a pub and we started
singing "You've Lost that Loving Feeling", the whole pub joined in
and...' er, this, no this can't be right... 'the bouncers then stepped in and
were very cross and they said we had to all stop singing because we did not
have a licence for live music'. Come on, could that happen?
PURNELL: Well that presumably is under the current regime, under the current
law before the new law comes in. But certainly under the new law when it comes
in, that we think that would be fine. If it's...
VINE: A hen night on a night out, in a pub that doesn't normally have live music,
no problem...
PURNELL: The the principle I think is fairly clear which is if it's an entertainment,
where you're advertising it, people are coming along, paying, expecting to see
live music that will require a licence as it does now. If it's just people singing
along or jamming then it's not, then it doesn't require a licence.
[DISCUSSION OMITTED RE PROBLEMS FOR TRAVELLING CIRCUSES. PURNELL SAYS HE IS
CONSULTING CIRCUS REPRESENTATIVES AND LOOKING AT THE 'ISSUES']
PURNELL: ... But the point is this is an Act that covers 190,000 people. As
it comes in there will be some anomalies, some issues that we need to look at.
We've put in a review process and where there is evidence of real problems you
know we are committed to acting on that.
VINE: And it won't hurt live music in pubs and bars in this country?
PURNELL: We think it will be good for live music. As I say it's going to be
an easier process people won't be being charged thousands of pounds. We're working
with Feargal Sharkey and the Live Music Forum to get people to apply for these
public entertainment licences. The Musicians' Union, for example, are visiting
all the pubs where people play to get them to apply. The PRS society are doing
it, the agents and concert promoters are doing it. So, we, I really really am
working to make sure this is good for live music rather than having a system
before where if there were two of you or less you could play, but if not it
was very very hard.
VINE: OK Thank you very much James Purnell MP, minister for licensing, in charge
of all this, thanks for your time.
PURNELL: Thank you.
[MUSIC INTERVAL]
VINE: ... we were talking to James Purnell who's the minister in charge of this
Licensing Act. And Roger Heywood from Norfolk is managing a small circus and
you're very very concerned indeed...
[CIRCUS DISCUSSION OMITTED HERE. 'TOTALLY HEAVY-HANDED AND COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE
FOR THE SMALL TOURING CIRCUS', SAYS ROGER HEYWOOD. HE MAKES THE IMPORTANT POINT
THAT ALTHOUGH NOT LICENSED IN THE PAST, CIRCUSES WERE ALREADY VETTED UNDER HEALTH
AND SAFETY LEGISLATION]
VINE: .... The Two Lips, er, have just emailed, well Mark Kelly from the Two
Lips which is a duo. Of course at the moment duos can play without a licence.
Under this new law they will need to be licensed. And he says: 'We're a musical
duo struggling to make a living in the south west. This new licence could spell
the end for us. How can two self-employed musicians ending up on the dole be
any good for anyone?'. Howard Bragen emails and says: 'I am a working musician
as well. I rely on casual engagements in pubs, in restaurants, bars, hotels.
From my point of view I shall probably lose a great deal of work because of
the two in a bar exemption disappearing. It looks like I am looking at life
on the dole from now on.' This is terrible news. This is all to do with this
one particular thing, the provision that says the licence must be there for
any live music from now on, whereas previously it was only if it was more than
two people. Susan Violino from Frome, is that Susan? Hello.
SUSAN VIOLINO [on phone]: Hello Jeremy.
VINE: You Frome in Somerset are you?
SUSAN VIOLINO: Yes that's right.
VINE: It's nice down there isn't it.
SUSAN VIOLINO: It's lovely, yes, a lovely rural spot.
VINE: And you have a restaurant.
SUSAN VIOLINO: We do yes, run by my husband who's a chef, and myself.
VINE: Now is this a restaurant where, where you get a guitarist wandering around
playing at tables?
SUSAN VIOLINO: No, not at all. No, our problem is completely different. All
we wanted to was extend our licensing hours, our supper licence and the hours
where we can, er, provide alcohol by literally a couple of hours a day. But
in order to that we had to fill in a, an enormous quantity of forms and make
plans etc as I was explaining to the person on the phone. I had to do 204 photocopies.
VINE: No!
SUSAN VIOLINO: Yes! You have to send them to environmental protection, public
safety, planning enforcement, protection of children from harm, fire and rescue,
trading standards, etc.. you know...
VINE: That sounds a bit like overload.
SUSAN VIOLINO: Yeah, it has been. I mean, you know, it's been difficult to run
the business, you know, as we're only a two man team and do all this paperwork
as well.
VINE: But at least, the minister's gone now, but he did say it is a one-off
thing.
SUSAN VIOLINO: I know, but he, I heard him speaking on I think it was the Today
programme on Radio 4, his quote something like 'all you have to do is put a
tick in the box'. I mean the forms have been so complicated, so difficult. I'm
not an unintelligent person but I really found them hard. Also drawing up to
scale plans of your premises. I mean why? You know, we hadn't had to produce
any plans until now.
VINE: And what about if somebody suddenly bursts into song while they're eating
a meal in your restaurant!
SUSAN VIOLINO: Oh, [laughs] I don't know about that!
VINE: Is that legal?
SUSAN VIOLINO: That remains to be seen.
VINE: Susan, thanks and good luck with it.
SUSAN VIOLINO: OK, all right. Thanks. Bye.
VINE: Chris Finch is in Devon, not the Chris Finch I assume, and says: 'If the
whole pub spontaneously bursts into song - that is legal. If you organise the
pub to burst into song, you need a licence.' Nick Bird in Clevedon in Somerset
says 'I'm a degree educated man. I've just received these reams of info that
I need to fill in to get a licence and I've found that it's a minefield. And
the worst thing is if you get it wrong you risk not getting your licence in
November'. Lots and lots and lots of calls on this. Rosemary... here's one more
for you. Rosemary Hilyard in Slinfield says 'Because our village hall has had
to apply for a licence the parish council can no longer meet there. Parish councils
are not allowed by law to hold meetings in licensed premises. We have taken
advice.'
[MUSIC INTERVAL]
VINE:.... [we were talking about] licensing and the, er, what seems to be a
new scheme of licences which is not receiving widespread approval [laughs].
Nick Edwards outside Maidstone in Kent says 'No-one's been mentioning the cost
of this. We've just had to apply for our licence. Last year it cost £26.
This year it's going to be £600. We are a non-profit making sports and
social club.' We have very... an emailing from Welwyn Garden City who says 'Why
do we have to be different in this country from any other country in Europe
when it comes to music licensing? France, Holland, Italy, Germany, Portugal,
Austria and Switzerland, they don't have these complicated rules.' And Roy Turner
in south Wales says ' I was on holiday recently in Croatia. We were outside
a bar having a drink, having a good time and there was a group of Croatian musicians
at the next table. Suddenly, spontaneously they started singing and produced
some instruments. And they then spent two hours singing to us and enjoying themselves.
How can it be that in this over-regulated country that now would not be allowed
to happen?' Geoff Winship in Exeter, good afternoon to you.
GEOFF WINSHIP [on phone]: Good afternoon Jeremy.
VINE: Now I understand you run a medieval jousting tournament.
[DISCUSSION OMITTED HERE CONCERNING WHETHER THIS IS COVERED BY THE NEW ACT]
[MUSIC follows to end of show at 2pm]
ENDS
Hamish Birchall
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